How are your parents, wife, and son doing these days?
Karmapa: They are all doing well. I think we were very lucky during the Covid-19 times. Although I don’t like the word lucky, I guess one could say the merit was such that we were able to use those three years to really spend some time together. In that sense, we were very fortunate. Of course, now that it has come to an end, my parents and my whole family basically said, “Now, everybody’s waiting,” so they don’t want to keep me for themselves. Nevertheless, it’s been more like a holiday during the last few months.
Coming to Europe, you mean?
Well, coming to Europe and traveling a bit. I also traveled in Southeast Asia. Now that the so-called normalcy is back, courses in KIBI1, Kagyu Mönlam in Bodhgaya, and all those usual routines are sort of back. So yes, my family is well. Especially for Thugseyla, I thought it would be good if he had some time for himself. I mean, I was lucky also, in a way. I was out of the scene for almost 11 years [growing up before leaving Tibet]. This was nice in some ways. In that sense, he still has six more years of freedom. We’ve been having a wonderful time, of course. Yet, at the same time — I guess this time around — to have that responsibility as a father is very interesting.
Did you enjoy your time here at the Europe Center?
Of course! The late Shamar Rinpoche, who was here many times during his lifetime, used to say, “Europe must be a kind of celestial realm.” I guess it’s both an Indian and a Buddhist way of talking about universes; the so-called six realms. He said that in many ways Europe doesn’t really have notions of non-virtue. Of course, various human factors are always there, but besides that, overall, at least in the past, one didn’t really have to think about locking one’s house when leaving. In that sense, it’s like a reflection of a celestial realm. He said, for example, that you don’t have tigers or other predators or snakes here; at best you have wolves.
And how was the program at the EC?
I think it was wonderfully organized. It’s beautiful because it is done by the people for the people. Everyone works together to make it happen on a voluntary basis. Because one works all year long, and you get this very short holiday — during that time, you could do so many things — you could spend time with your family, you could spend time with your children. In fact, you bring the family along [to the EC] and then dedicate that time. That’s amazing.
What is the role and significance of the lineage lama in the Karma Kagyu lineage?
I think for the longest time, it was like a backup. It wasn’t really the case that my predecessors were leading, and the others were following, although it’s outwardly portrayed that way. It was more like a backup, if that is the right word. The role was basically nurturing and supporting everybody and letting everyone grow and develop. But every now and then, if there was a lapse in terms of organization or even in the practice, then the role of my predecessors was to act as sort of a guardian in a way, like a backup. That’s one way I see it. But a lot changed during the time of the 16th Karmapa, and currently things are changing as well. Therefore, I really don’t know what to say exactly in terms of what the role or position is.
My understanding is that, since I seem to have the responsibility of carrying this position, then in terms of fulfilling my role, my job is basically to just spend time in practice for my own spiritual development. This may sound strange, in some ways, because the so-called Karmapa is supposed to be liberated and enlightened already. So, what is there to develop?
If I understand it correctly, I think enlightenment or liberation is something that is continuously dynamic, meaning that it’s alive. That is why they say that for a bodhisattva, there is no point where we can say, “I have seen enough,” or “I have learned enough.” There’s no limit to it. It’s all-pervasive. But what it really means is that there is no end to discovery or learning. It doesn’t mean that there are unknown territories that need to be conquered. It means that, in a way, the emotions just keep on evolving. You know, it’s like music, actually. In the West, you have Do Re Mi Fa, and so on.
The musical scales?
Yeah, and in the same way, in India, you have Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, and so on [the Indian system of music scales]. Basically, they are like alphabets. But there is no end to how many words you can create. In the same way, there is no end to creating music. That’s why music never gets old. Because you can always create a new beat, a new tune. In that way, it’s alive. Yeah. There is no final frontier. I think the so-called enlightened activity is something like that.
In that sense, then we are not different, you know, it’s just that I’m put officially in charge. Otherwise, it’s the same. So, if you’re cool about that, then it’s good. Because then we know that, during this time around, somebody is the so-called teacher. And someone is the student.
For example, during each lifetime someone becomes the father, someone becomes the mother, someone becomes the son or the daughter, and the next time around it’s a complete shuffle. Is there a victory in terms of who will become the chicken in the end? Or who will become the egg? There is no end to it. In that sense, I’m trying to keep my cool carrying this position because I really don’t know what this role is actually supposed to do. There are both traditional and nontraditional expectations about my role.
The transmission?
Oh, yes [Karmapa smiles and laughs]. The most sacred of all? What is it?
Are you working on some projects right now, like books, or texts, or commentaries?
No. I mean, I try to write things down if I feel that something sounds interesting in my head. Initially, there were many occasions, hundreds of occasions actually, where I thought, wow, that makes sense! And I thought, next time I should share that with somebody.
Somebody once said, when the moment is gone, it’s gone. And it’s true. The next day I don’t remember what I felt, thought I knew, or thought I discovered. I thought I should write it down, but then I cannot carry a pen and paper everywhere I go. A modern gadget like a mobile phone is very useful in that sense.
Sometimes I record what I think I have discovered and then sometimes I just write it down. Otherwise, there is no particular project besides trying to do a little bit of my own practice and then trying to aspire, pray, or meditate for those who request it. On any given day I get a list of people who ask me to please pray for this, bless this and that person, and so on. I try to do my best to make wishes for them through my daily practices. That’s about it.
In a few years, advances in technology could create a computer system with output that is indistinguishable from human behavior. Could such a computer system in some way be conscious or aware?
I don’t know. I love this anime called Ghost in the Shell. It’s been one of my favorites. I think it was a Japanese manga that turned into an anime. It’s sort of exploring that idea. In some ways, many of my Tibetan friends said a long time ago that science fiction is all sort of becoming true.
I don’t know where this will lead. Will this help us appreciate things? Will this help us have more time for ourselves? I really don’t know. For example, for the Buddhist canon, meaning the direct teachings of the Buddha and the commentaries (Kangyur2 and Tengyur3), you first have to have a gompa. Within the gompa you have a library where you host volumes and volumes of printed texts from the Kangyur and Tengyur. Only a certain number of monasteries were able to host that. In the rest of Tibet, the people didn’t have this luxury because they were all either farmers or nomads. They couldn’t carry all those texts, and even if they had them, they didn’t know how to read them. They would just carry them on mules or on their backs and would sincerely pray to them so that they would bring basic things like good health, good fortune, good harvest, and so on. Now the medium went from the library into books, from books into a series of floppy disks, from floppy disks to compact discs, and from compact discs to USB sticks, and so on. And now, I suppose, it is moving into cloud computing.
Does this mean that you could theoretically put the texts on a blockchain so that it’s accessible everywhere on the internet; immutable, and available for posterity?
Yes. And in that sense, it’s amazing. Now, everyone has access, and everyone can enjoy it. But are we really enjoying it? I don’t know. That’s the thing. Instead, we want to focus on the summary of the Kangyur and Tengyur. What is the pith instruction? And then we sort of focus maybe on the dohas.4 Of all the mahasiddhas,5 who has the shortcut? And, even if you read the doha, actually find it, and read it, then somehow, there is no real satisfaction in a way. And therefore, maybe artificial intelligence can help us discover lost teachings, termas,6 or other things, like ruins or texts that have burnt or decayed.
All of this is possible. But will we really appreciate it? In the past, we didn’t have time for spirituality because our profession was that of a farmer or nomad. Currently, we think we have to work for our livelihood and earn incomes so that we can make ends meet. And so therefore, technology can do wondrous things, where, finally, everyone can have time for themselves. All the work will be done by machines for us. But will we appreciate it? I don’t know; it’s very difficult to say.
Often, the first challenge of our society is survival. If machines or technology somehow took care of that—and we wouldn’t really have to worry about survival—then the mind is strange in that it looks for another problem. Through all the evolutions at present, the current problem is identity. I mean, I think, not even a century ago, identity was not an issue. It was all about surviving. Now, survival is not the issue. Now strangely out of nowhere, it’s identity.
Identity in what sense?
In terms of who I am, what is my role? What is my position? Where do I fit in? Do I belong here?
Like finding meaning for individuals?
That’s it, yes.
Is technology always reflecting humanity’s own mind?
Depending on the intention, technology can be beneficial, harmful, or even a danger to the further existence of humanity. I don’t know. For example, each era of humanity has advanced in various technologies. For some reason, the issue at the end of a particular era is that people misused that technology to its utmost extent.
Atomic power is one example. It can be used for wondrous things, which I guess is part of the situation we are in right now. But then again, it can be misused as a showcase for power. In that sense, these technologies are like a double-edged sword. I don’t really feel completely that the so-called artificial intelligence — and all of the developments around it — are completely leaning more towards something negative. I think it’s all about how we use it. If you have good motivation, if you have no agenda, I think, no matter how much it advances, I think it’s fine. I think it can always be used for good. Whether artificial intelligence evolves on its own, I don’t know, maybe this is just purely science fiction. If it does, yeah, that’ll be very interesting. What if it gets enlightened on its own?
Maybe we can feed it the Kangyur and Tengyur. And see what happens?
Yeah.
Today, digitalization and media play an increasing role in how we use dharma. Often, we have meetings on Zoom, and during Covid we even used this to meditate together. To what extent is personal contact necessary, for instance, for empowerments, refuge or teachings?
I only did Zoom once during the pandemic. That was sort of my first time, maybe my last. In terms of teachings, I have my own sort of blockage about that. I’m sure if both parties — the one who’s sharing, and the one who’s listening or receiving — if they have the same or similar motivation, then maybe it doesn’t matter. Maybe such technology would be an advantage without having to travel across the world. From the comfort of one’s own home or space then you can receive everything.
But I think that’s what I meant about the Kangyur and Tengyur and all that online information. Would we really appreciate it? We really don’t know. If you can appreciate it, yes, maybe it’s okay. But most likely not for now, at least. There is literally unlimited information that we can find, but do we use that? No. We browse through it just to pass time or for amusement; that’s about it. And so therefore, I think it makes more sense for now that if you’re receiving a particular traditional teaching, it is better in person. Maybe it’s only a psychological thing, you know: I have worked for it, I’ve earned it, and therefore I’m receiving something. Maybe it is just a psychological thing. But nevertheless, for now, I think that still has weight. In the future maybe it will be so different that we can just plug in all the volumes of initiations and transmissions through a chip.
How do you see the future of the Karma Kagyu Lineage?
In some ways one cannot find an answer in a few words, I suppose. But there are probably a few shortcuts. One of the shortcuts is that of devotion. Every time I came here to the Diamond Way centers, I felt that it is fortunately not lacking. There seems to be great devotion or loyalty or whatever we call it. That’s great. Especially here, in a highly developed environment, devotion is probably something that is out of date. But somehow, it’s still there. And to me, that’s very inspiring. In that sense, in terms of the future of the so-called Karma Kagyu, it is good. But actually, it’s a complete mystery. There is a connection with that mystery and what I said earlier about living enlightenment.
Because it’s a mystery, you can go either way, and there is no guarantee. It can go up and down in various ways. Maybe there can be some sort of decay or decrease, in terms of the quality or the spirit of the lineage or practice. Yet at the same time, through some mysterious ways you can pick up again. No one can really say. We have no real control or power over how our actions will really affect the so-called future. But what we do have control over is what we do at this moment.
We can both learn and meditate in the transmission of this lineage as best we can without any kind of blockage. The lineage that we have had until now is very much the tradition that Milarepa and Gampopa received, and that’s what is being passed on. Ever since Gampopa received it, there’s been a very special combination: the essence, the Mahamudra, being complemented by the practice of the Bodhisattva path, or the enlightened path. This combination has survived until now.
Therefore, for now one should do one’s best to preserve it. That’s all that matters. We have no control over the future. Even if thousands of buddhas come together and sort of focus all their energy in a dramatic way, it won’t do anything. The only thing you have sort of control over is just trying to preserve this practice. That was one of the legacies of the late Shamar Rinpoche because although he literally had no time to focus on anything, he did try to reserve as much time as possible for preserving this Kagyu lineage.
He told me many times towards the end that this way called Vajrayana, which existed in India during a particular period, was beautiful. At the same time, he also said that although it is not out of date, if one is really devoted to using the Vajrayana methods, you cannot use this method within our society. It’s not really a social practice; it is more of an individual practice. Therefore, his job was always to say, go and find a jungle, because that’s what was done in India as well. For example, for someone like Naropa, he couldn’t practice Vajrayana within Nalanda University. It wasn’t possible, because it’s a society. So he literally went into the jungle. But that doesn’t mean that it’s out of date, or it’s extinct, or it’s invalid. It’s valid. Nevertheless, to really focus on that practice, you have to go on a very particular journey. But within society we can use the Bodhisattva practice.
I think one of the ingredients that is really needed for that Bodhisattva practice is, as I said, devotion. So in that sense, in this lifetime from the first day I arrived until today, I never saw that quality waning in any way, which is unbelievable. Every time I come to any Diamond Way center, devotion and the practice of Guru Yoga is very strong. Maybe from time to time, there can be a sort of misunderstanding of what Guru Yoga means or what devotion means because there are so many beginners. But devotion is not lacking. In that sense, I think there is a real quality to harness both the Bodhisattva practice as well as the Vajrayana practice. I would say in the present moment we should do our best to continue this effort. But, what will happen tomorrow? No one knows.
Rosi: We all make wishes that after our lifetimes it will continue somehow.
Maybe with the help of artificial intelligence. [Karmapa laughs]
Bruce: We can upload ourselves for the next generation.
And then see if you will pick up the right AI, like how we recognized tulkus in the past. But instead we will have gadgets of their predecessors.
Bruce (pointing towards a USB stick on the table): Asking a possible candidate: Is this your USB stick?
We can lay down a lot of USB sticks from the former incarnation and see if he will pick up the right one [Karmapa laughs].
The interview was conducted by Rosi Fischer for the German edition Buddhismus Heute, and Bruce Underhill for Buddhism Today.
Photo credit: Hania Lubek
- KIBI: Karmapa International Buddhist Institute ↩︎
- Kangyur (Tib.): Translation of Buddha’s words. A collection of the direct teachings of the Buddha in 100, 103, 106, or 108 volumes, depending on the edition. The first part of the canon. ↩︎
- Tengyur (Tib.): Translation of treatises. A collection of the commentaries of the Indian masters on the Kangyur, between 225 and 256 volumes, depending on the edition. ↩︎
- Doha (Skt.): Verse or Song spontaneously uttered by a practitioner of the Diamond Way (Vajrayana) as an expression of his or her realization. ↩︎
- Mahasiddhas (Skt.): Great tantric masters of India, who were famous for reaching enlightenment in one lifetime through the powerful methods of tantra and the Great Seal. ↩︎
- Terma (Tib., lit. “hidden treasure”): Hidden teachings; often the specific teachings hidden by Guru Rinpoche and his Tibetan consort Yeshe Tsogyal. They are preserved and later rediscovered by “Treasure Finders” (Tib. tertön). ↩︎
