Q: You have been a key person in establishing Karmapa’s activity and teachings here in Europe, especially in France. Please tell us how the 16th Karmapa asked you to come to Europe.
Jigme Rinpoche: In 1974 Trungpa Rinpoche and Kalu Rinpoche invited the 16th Karmapa to the United States. He was also invited to Europe by Akong Rinpoche from Samye Ling, Ole and Hannah Nydahl, and Kalu Rinpoche. At the end of his US tour, near Niagara Falls, he asked his Chinese sponsor Mr. Shen to help establish the dharma in America. Mr. Shen was a Mahayana scholar then and told us he didn’t practice Vajrayana, but he was happy to offer some land near Woodstock.
The day Karmapa arrived at the Bodhi House on Long Island, Mr. Shen had seen seven footprints in the library room. Mr. Shen said, “Today I dreamed of a big, shining sun, and now I see these seven steps so this must be a Buddha coming into my house.” He had strong devotion at that time and was really convinced when Karmapa came.
Later, in Paris, there was an Englishman, actually a Nyingmapa not following Karma Kagyu, who gave a donation to Karmapa—the land in the Dordogne. When he met Karmapa, he explained how he got the land and told the Karmapa that if it was useful for the dharma, he would offer one part of the land. Karmapa said, “First I will go see the place and then I will make a decision.” Before going to Geneva, we went to Lyon, and Karmapa took a small private plane to visit Dordogne. He went in the morning, came back that afternoon, and said, “Oh, this is a very good place, I should accept it.”
He asked me to stay, but at first didn’t say what I should do there. Then in 1977 he said, “I will give some precise responsibilities to each of you and you should follow it.” Lama Gendun should transmit all the Vajrayana teachings: the retreats and the yogas. Khenpo Tsultrim should give the transmissions of all the philosophical teachings. And Ole and Hannah should develop the centers. He said I should be there with them all together.
Also at that time, Kalu Rinpoche started the three-year retreats, and Ole and Hannah asked Karmapa about doing one in the Dordogne. But Karmapa said, “You don’t need to go. You must do this job.” So they didn’t go into retreat.
So basically Lama Ole and Hannah asked whether they should do the three-year retreat?
I remember they asked if they should and Karmapa said, “You don’t need to do the retreats. You should start centers.”
Then in 1983, Gendun Rinpoche started to transmit all the Vajrayana teachings. I discovered this to be a very difficult job, because there are many teachings that people cannot hold. Just doing one three-year retreat doesn’t give results. Some people should really go deeper. I think the first steps were done, but the second steps have to be better. The translations are more or less okay, and some kind of a system is there, but not the results. The seed is there anyway, which is very good.
And Khenpo Tsultrim didn’t follow Karmapa’s advice; he gave teachings one year in Dordogne, then made his own center. Togpa Rinpoche replaced him in 1994, and then after Rinpoche passed away, Khenpo Chödrak and others started. Now it is happening because Karmapa had given a precise list of what should be taught by Khenpo, which we continued to follow.
Ole and Hannah first focused on Europe. Slowly they were invited elsewhere, and now they are connected all over the world.
Please tell us a bit about the first time you met Lama Ole and Hannah. How was your relationship with them?
I was in Rumtek the first time they met Karmapa in Kathmandu. I think they were introduced by Lopön Tsechu Rinpoche. Later they came to Rumtek , where of course there were few foreigners. Karmapa made them very welcome and gave them teachings. They were very close to Karmapa, so we all felt very good about their presence somehow. They got more involved and came every year, so we all became very familiar, connected with each other and with Karmapa. When we started to travel in Europe, Ole and Hannah followed the entourage everywhere, so we got closer. We began in London, and all throughout Europe and America we were together.
What was your first impression when you saw Ole and Hannah?
At that time Ole was very young, strong, and a very nice person—a lot of smiling and very joyful. Hannah was nice, very soft and also gave off a good feeling. Everybody liked them both.
You are now the general secretary for the 17th Karmapa. How would you compare dharma in Europe today to how it was when you began?
Today, actually basic dharma is doing very well. My feeling is that dharma is generally giving benefit to many people—a good result. Specific things have to be more developed, otherwise it cannot be rooted in Europe. First, both profound Vajrayana practice and very philosophical teachings have to be looked after, otherwise they could just disappear. Basic connection with the teachings and practices that everybody can use, some explanation of the teachings and simple but deeply meaningful practices—all these things are well-established and settled. Everybody can do them and is practicing.
But I think it is quite good that more dharma goes out to the general public. Historically this seems to be very important. For example, in India the dharma disappeared quickly because most teachings and practices remained in monasteries and retreats. Lay people didn’t have knowledge of the dharma. When one religion was destroyed, very quickly, everybody was looking for another one. That’s why India lost Buddhism. The power of Muslims is that their religion is incorporated into family life. You cannot destroy the Muslims, because each person is a kind of practitioner. In Asia in the past, the general public was devoted, but they didn’t have so much knowledge of dharma; only special people had it—a little bit like Catholics here. So I think it’s a good sign for dharma to get out to the public.
When you had your first experiences bringing dharma to the West with your activity in France, was it different compared with today?
In the beginning, we didn’t think it was. Only a few people did the practice and it was like the old routine in India or Tibet: some people specialized and the rest followed. But now it’s changing. Now it’s quite good—so many people know how to practice. They also know the meaning, which makes dharma go into individual family life. This gives it quite a strong foundation. And then from there, somebody who wants to specialize can develop individually. So there’s less of a risk that the dharma will disappear.
So we can say it’s been a historical success…
Yes.
We often hear that the reason for your and Lama Ole’s success is that you followed the 16th Karmapa’s wishes. What were those wishes?
I think the main wish of the Karmapa was that the dharma should help with people’s problems. We try to go more towards what people need and where they have problems, and that’s why many people connect. Most people do not feel like going to higher levels of dharma, but they want to solve their problems. When they apply the methods, people find them very effective.
Please tell us about the importance of devotion in the Kagyu lineage.
Devotion and connection with the lama in the Kagyu lineage makes your knowledge grow. This comes from Marpa, and even before in India, with the devotion of Naropa to Tilopa and so on. With devotion it is easy to connect to the blessing of the lama in a kind of mechanical way . It matters less what you know, because the meaning feels alive inside you. This is why there can be important Kagyu lamas who don’t necessarily have a lot of knowledge. Basically, any kind of person can be very profound through devotion.
Now, in order to improve devotion and also to get a kind of stability to be sure with whom to connect, there is Guru Yoga and Ngöndro. This combination creates deeper involvement. We can develop liberation from negative karmic conditions when we have devotion. We can go through purifications and so on, and develop from them very sincerely.
A deep connection between the lama and yourself gives capacity or potential to extend your knowledge and wisdom easily—a simple practice. Actually, in Kagyu Buddhism, when you really look, the profound teachings are very simple. So a lot of people don’t understand them. They need more vast and intellectual teachings. If you understood properly, then you wouldn’t need to study and learn so much individually. We have to study to clarify our doubts, but if you have a very strong devotion to the blessing, then doubts clarify themselves naturally. There is a very subtle technique here; that’s the specific Kagyu lineage transmission.
How would you explain to someone who is completely new to Buddhism what devotion is?
People always need someone they can rely on, and somehow that’s also the capacity to trust. When they encounter someone who is very important, they feel confidence. They get a method and when they apply it they feel a change so they are more convinced about what they’re doing. Devotion is like this. Another way is intellectually: you know a lot of things, and from there you see things differently than a normal person; and you may also develop devotion in that way.
Why would you say Guru Yoga is important?
Guru Yoga is very simple: just have a connection to the lama and you don’t need to do other things. It’s very important because with a certain pure background, it’s personal connection. Then you might feel things change without your knowing. You become more open, more accessible, and less disturbed. Of course, distraction comes, but it is less strong, it can be understood very quickly, and it’s a little bit different than for a normal person because practice makes you develop. And through this, if you continue, destruction of concepts increases and everything becomes more understandable.
From teachings you have given about Guru Yoga, I have the feeling that development is quite spontaneous. Can you talk a little more about this?
First, you receive the teachings; then, you find the guru or lama to be convincing; and then, when you do practice, it’s a matter of habit actually—spontaneous development. For example, our main problem is attachment to the world of conditions. So now if you say you should detach from the world, it’s impossible. Even if you want to, you cannot just do it, because you are very deeply connected. The problem is that when you are attached to the world, all kinds of feelings come up: you dislike, you don’t like so much, you feel bad, you struggle, you feel so much anger—all these mixed sufferings.
Then when you practice, there is a sense of change. You cannot give it all up, but slowly, some habits don’t make much sense anymore. Realizing that they don’t make much sense means you are much more free. You like if what happens is good, but you are also all right if nothing happens. This is a kind of improvement. It’s the same with all emotional concepts: the form is changing, and you change also in how you face people. They are difficult but you see them as really human. And difficulties are not that difficult anymore, because somehow you understand why people are not always nice and proper. Your mind is more free and it is easy to accept, to connect with people. More compassion and love are there. It’s very natural.
A lot of freedom comes from doing the Guru Yoga. Later you can understand how to remain inseparable from the essence of the guru. Through this, your knowledge, understanding, vision, and feeling develop. Distortions decrease, development is much more free, and due to this, tendencies change. Past habits of being involved in samsara are not so important. Of course, sometimes we use them because we need them, but they’re not so deeply rooted. This means you are much more free from illusionary conceptions. Therefore if you reach this kind of state, you never go to the lower realms, because the conditions there are less important for you and your consciousness basically is not grasping at them. Then recitation and practice lets mind become more and more positive.
A question regarding Guru Yoga: You said that when you meditate on a specific form of Karmapa, you are meditating on the essence of it. So when you do the 16th or 8th Karmapa meditations, are you doing basically the same meditation?
The structure of the text is different, but the essence is the same.
We are going to be receiving empowerments here. How does receiving blessing empowerments help us in our daily practice?
This is similar to how, through Marpa and Rechungpa, the main lineage transmissions and blessings came to Tibet. A blessing initiation makes an imprint on our nature so that whatever we do creates fewer obstacles, making it easier to grow our knowledge. So the visualization, and also mantra, not only permits but also enables you to do this. Without the blessing, it’s like putting a seed in a piece of wood—the seed has qualities but it will never grow. But if you put it in the ground, then it will grow. So initiations are a little bit like this. Your nature is too connected with samsaric tendencies. If you want to do something, difficulties come up, but initiation makes it easier to confront them. So we say that initiation can ripen your nature, which means it’s easier for you to develop in all the practices.
Can you give us some advice on how to keep the pure view in our daily life?
If mind is less caught by our samsaric tendencies, then pure vision is much easier. We cannot have a pure view because of pride, jealousy, anger—with these, our view cannot be pure. I am not saying you will be without them; you may have them, but you see them as temporary concepts. You can observe this in yourself: how you were in the past and how you are easier now. In the past, you perhaps could not accept sharing things with people and fully supporting them and so on—many practitioners have this kind of experience. Then you feel that now you can share with people, support people, and the reason is that your attachment has changed. Pride and anger also changed, so even if people are difficult, you can still help them. This kind of thing is a real way to apply devotion, compassion and everything.
