Question: There have been a number of self-immolations by Tibetans in the past months—about ninety, with twenty-eight in November alone—as well as hunger strikes, for the Tibetan cause of liberation from China. What do you think about this situation?
Karmapa: As a Tibetan, born in Tibet, I am concerned a lot about the recent escalation of self-immolations. Normally we Tibetans are known for our spirituality and our practice of non-violence, for practicing compassion and wisdom. This stems from our greatest inheritance, our spiritual inheritance: the practice of Buddha-dharma, or Buddhism. Therefore, I am really quite shocked to witness Tibetans who take these actions and who see this as a peaceful way of conveying a message. I strongly wish that this could stop because this is definitely not an example of patience in Buddhism.
Why do you think this is happening? If it is not Buddhist, why are people who are Buddhists this method of protest?
As a spiritual person and a Buddhist myself, I can see that we sometimes take very strong and drastic measures. Our mind is heated up by disturbing emotions or by pleasure. This fact is all the more reason to recall our spiritual inheritance and to calm the mind with the method of sila1 or “ethics.” Then one can assess the situation and see whether we today, in the twenty-first century, also have peaceful, understandable, clear, and coherent methods.
What form of protest would you recommend since people are going to protest against something—for example, against injustice?
Here again, I would like to respond from a spiritual perspective. Along with recalling our spiritual practices, we should also apply them. When we are unclear, confused, and heated up by disturbing emotions, then there is all the more reason that we should at least attempt to actually apply our spiritual practices. I think that that is a meaningful approach.
But would that draw enough public attention to your cause, if you do not protest but just go for a spiritual path?
When our mind is clear through the practice of meditation, then whatever means or tools that we apply become very transparent and clear. I think that our spiritual inheritance contains many wonderful and valuable methods. They have been useful not only in the short term but for more than a millennium, ever since the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. This is the thing that enlightens our way of life—how we see life and how we lead our lives. Every method for achieving happiness, clarity, and understanding is already there. If we can preserve the methods by putting them into practice in our daily lives, then everything that we wish to achieve can come out of that.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama seems to approve of the self-immolations, not quite directly but indirectly. He said that they are a nonviolent way of protest. What do you think about that?
As one born in Tibet, I have the utmost respect for the Dalai Lama. I see him as one of the most learned scholars alive today, particularly in Buddhist philosophy. But what I have understood up to now from my own experience of Buddha-dharma is that it is very, very important for us to preserve and to sustain our human existence.
Although this existence is impermanent, we can achieve wondrous things. In Buddhism we speak of how we can achieve enlightenment or liberation through this human form. Buddha himself said that is it very important to preserve this body, just as it is important to preserve a clear mind. Self-immolations not only harm oneself and disturb one’s physical existence, out of heated emotions, but they also create a lot of confusion for the general public.
We Tibetans should remember from where we have come and what our identity is—namely our spirituality.
So your views are slightly different from the Dalai Lama’s views?
As I said earlier, I have the greatest respect for him. But as far as I know from the philosophy and practice of Buddhism, a nonviolent method would not involve such drastic measures.
Pause.
This human existence is very much like a temple. As long as we are alive, it is very important for our development for the mind to have a little quiet.
The Tibetan Prime Minister in exile2 has said that, while he does not approve of self-immolations, it is the sacred duty of all Tibetans to support these self-immolations. What is your view on that?
For sure he has every good intention but I come from a spiritual perspective. Spirituality is my life, you see!
From this perspective, our ancestors, our earlier generations, and even today’s Tibetans are known for our practice and expression of compassion, however mundane and limited it might be. But, because of Buddhism, we were able to continue and enter the twenty-first century with some understanding and peace. As long as we focus on the practice of compassion and wisdom, everything that we need for nourishment of body and mind is already there.
The Dalai Lama has recognized another Karmapa, not you. Does that concern you? Have you met the other Karmapa?
At the moment, as we all know, awareness around the world of these self-immolations is very striking. This is a more important matter to deal with and I find it very disturbing. I imagine that the general public must be having a similar reaction. The general public probably perceives it in the same way and therefore I think that, although my opinion and voice is only one among many, I have the responsibility—not only as a Tibetan but also as a global citizen—to offer my thoughts and my perspective on this matter.
I feel that spirituality is very important, no matter how materialistic the world is. For us Tibetans, spirituality has been a big, big part of our lives; it is something like our inheritance. As long as we preserve this by practice—putting it into action—I feel that this is everything. Through this, I hope we can not only give meaning to our lives, but also develop understanding. Understanding includes that it is important to not only not harm others, but also to not harm oneself. This is very much a part of our practice.
To get back to my other question, does the situation with the other Karmapa cause confusion among your students?
Although that may or may not have been an issue, I think that there is a larger thing that is taking place, which I have already mentioned, that is, the self-immolators. The means that they are applying is very much against the practice of Buddhism. There is a larger issue at hand.
You have been living for some time in India. What is your experience here? Are you satisfied with the policy of the Indian government regarding the Tibet question?
I have lived here since 1994 and have enjoyed wonderful hospitality. Here I am free to exercise my spiritual practice, which I think is the greatest freedom. Therefore, I feel very fortunate here.
Now that there is new leadership in China, which seems to be more open, do you foresee any change in the policy toward Tibet?
These are political issues. As a practitioner, one who is trying to follow a spiritual life, I have very little interest in, or knowledge about, these issues. I strongly feel that through spiritual means we can reach everything in our life that we wish for ourselves.
People treat you like a living god. How do you deal with that?
Life is impermanent, and one can experience various aspects of life—easy, difficult, or colorful aspects of life. All of that resides in the nature of the conditioned world. I try my best to follow my practice and to not get distracted. But it is very challenging, I must say. One can easily get distracted and, when disturbing emotions around arise, the mind does get heated. Then it is even more important to apply the practice as much as possible—not to become extreme about it, but to do the practice as regularly as possible.
Is there conflict between your students and those of the other Karmapa?
For a time, there were some issues, but I see it as my responsibility to offer my spiritual advice. I cannot imagine any other life than a spiritual one.
You were only one-and-a-half years old when you realized that you are the Karmapa. Do you have recollections of this time, or even of your earlier lives?
That was a long time ago but, yes, I have several recollections of those times. Reincarnation and rebirth are very much a part of our spirituality. Through the means of meditation, one is able to recall past lives. With a good amount of meditation practice, I think that it is possible. Unfortunately, these days I have been quite busy, here and there. For all of us, not just for myself, it is possible with spiritual practices to remember past lives.
Do you ever have doubt about your mission?
Doubt, anxieties, and fears are a part of the conditioned world. That is all the more reason for applying our valuable means. Doubt may be part of life, but if you give in to it, it could lead to taking drastic measures—such as now, with these self-immolators. Therefore, it is very important to balance oneself through spirituality.
Do you see Buddhism as a religion or a philosophy, or both?
There are many ways of seeing this. Personally, I think that it is difficult to say. Buddhism has ritual and philosophical aspects, but I would say that Buddhism is itself a method, a way of life. It is a method to bring understanding about what the meaning of one’s life is and what kind of benefit it has. We get an understanding of the fundamental qualities— in short, compassion and wisdom. Through this way of life we are capable of simplifying things, calming the mind of disturbing emotions, and focusing on what is important. We do live in the conditioned world, but, when we go through the conditions of daily life, we should know our priorities and help others. In order to do so, we should understand that it is important to keep body and mind free of disturbing emotions and disturbing actions.
How does one overcome the three “poisons” of the mind—greed, ignorance, and anger?
Basically, through the practice of Buddhism. The only way is, first of all, to calm the mind through meditation. Then when one calms the mind, one is able to see things more clearly—like still water, which is not murky and has no ripples or bubbles. When mind has become calm, we can then assess whether the disturbing emotions are really disturbing emotions—whether they actually disturb us or not. When mind is already heated, no matter how much we try to assess, we will only be judging. We will not be able to understand the truth. Therefore, meditation is very important. In order to have a fruitful meditation, we apply sila or “ethics.” In this way, we can understand what it is that we truly want and what is truly essential in our life.
Does belief in reincarnation help diminish the fear of death? Nothing to fear from death, because you will be reborn anyway.
One can see it like that, but it is only a temporary solution to reduce fear. Ultimately, we have to reach a state of consciousness where we have no fear at all. We do not have to rely on anything; whether there is rebirth or not, we have no fear at all. It is a matter of achieving a state of consciousness in which one no longer knows fear. If the thought of reincarnation helps to reduce fear in a particular moment, that is advisable. But we can overcome all fears. I am convinced of that. All of us can reach that state. Otherwise, there would be no genuine enlightenment.
Do you have any particular message today for the Chinese and the Indian governments?
All of us human beings have kind, positive, heartfelt thoughts. It is in our nature. This is what I have learned from the practice of Buddhism. But I have also learned that applying good actions must follow these good intentions. If something begins well, then we must continue it well and complete it positively.
Concerning the mind for Tibetans it is important to recall our spiritual inheritance, how to practice it, and how to apply it. We should lead our lives in a positive way from the beginning, in the middle, and at the end, by applying peaceful and kind means—and not through drastic means, which would bring harm to ourselves and others.
What do you do in your spare time?
There is less and less spare time nowadays. I try to stay on top of today’s discussions and news, which is very interesting. I try to follow that and to understand, so that I can connect better with fellow practitioners and other individuals. It is very difficult to keep up nowadays.
Would you like to add anything, here at the end?
Along with my honest assessment of the self-immolations, I will also make wishes. Tomorrow we travel to Bodhgaya, where collectively we will offer aspirations for all those who have engaged in such drastic actions. For anyone who is affected by those actions, I hope that they can develop understanding and clarity and, most importantly, recall their spiritual inheritance.
